Get Around The Right People
Dave: Is that a...? He did put down some M&Ms.
Melina: Stop saying M&Ms.
Kevin: M&Ms. What do I do with my hands? I don't know.
Narrator: Welcome to Flippin Off, a purpose-driven podcast about flipping houses and making a difference.
Melina: Hey, everybody, Melina Boswell here with Dave Boswell, founders of New Wealth Advisors Club. So today we're in the studio with one of my most favorite people of all time, Kevin Castillo. We refer...
Melina: Yup, we call him Sito.
Kevin: That's right, that's right.
Melina: He has a name Sito, also Handsome Castle.
Kevin: That's the one I prefer.
Melina: Okay, we'll go with Handsome Castle. He got that name in Chile, huh?
Kevin: I got...yeah, because everybody kept asking me what my name meant. We kept going through what names mean, what names mean, and that's what my name means. Means first Kevin, Irish, handsome, and then, Castillo...
Melina. Handsome Castle.
Kevin: That's it.
Melina: So that's what... So many things you don't know. He was in Chile, actually, on a mission trip back in, gosh, what year was that, Kevin? Was that in 2010?
Kevin: Yeah, 2010.
Melina: 2010 when the big earthquake happened. So, that's a great introduction to how long Kevin has been a part of our family, very, very long time.
Kevin: Usually, they always ask me, "Are you Dave and Melina's son?" That's every time we meet with people, that's what everybody asks me.
Melina: Yeah, I'm sure.
Kevin: So now I just say yes. Because it's easier to just say yes than going through the whole explanation of why I'm not.
Dave: That's funny.
Dave: Oh, I make the joke all the time, you've been around so much I think I claimed you on my taxes once or twice and you probably don't know about it.
Dave: We needed some write-offs, so we took Kevin.
Melina: Yeah, exactly.
Dave: He's at our house so much, why the heck not?
Kevin: Yeah. I use enough of your stuff, you buy me enough things, I take it.
Dave: Yeah. Well, it's funny. We're sitting here, so how old are you today, Kev?
Kevin: I'm 26.
Dave: Twenty-six, yeah.
Melina: Oh my gosh.
Dave: It's crazy, right?
Melina: Holy cow.
Dave: I feel like we've grown up with this kid.
Melina: I know. True.
Dave: Like, he kinda has.
Kevin: Yeah. Like, definitely, I feel like it's...from when I first met you guys to now, it's...I don't even know who I was when I first got started. You know?
Melina: Well, that's because you were barely 18 years old, you just turned 18 years old.
Melina: Actually, it was your 18th birthday. I just remember that was the first time I met you.
Kevin: Yeah. That's the first time, 18.
Dave: Eighteen, 18 years old, "I wanna be a real-estate investor. Teach me."
Kevin: Yeah. How...
Dave: How on Earth did you, at 18 years old...well, first of all, what made you look for us to become a real-estate investor? Where'd that stem from? Tell us a little bit about your background, your family, come from a bunch of well-educated...
Kevin: Definitely not, definitely not. Most of my family is, you know, blue collar, they work at factories, drivers. Not a lot of education. I mean, it's not like we're dumb or anything, but, obviously, we've worked, you know, most of my family came from Mexico, came from working a lot of that, the big idea, you're gonna...to get ahead in life, you really gotta work a lot and work very hard. And then once I started hearing real-estate, starting business ownership, I'm like, "Well, if I don't have to work as hard and still be able to make a ton of money, I'd prefer to do that." You know?
Melina: That's right up my alley.
Kevin: Yeah, that makes a lot more sense for me. Especially seeing I don't like being up crazy early in the morning, you know. You guys know that already. And I just wanted to be my own boss. I heard, "Oh, time free to owner, boss, be your own boss, put your own hours, make your own type of money." And that's what I wanted to do. And I didn't wanna do what the rest of my family was doing so I saw real-estate, I saw different people making tons and tons of money, you know, living the type of lifestyle that I wanted to live and that's...I started looking. I started...at first, I started looking to get my license, looking to be an agent. And then, you guys said, "You don't need your license. You know, you don't need your license to go buy a property and flip it." So, then I tried to look for the people that knew what that looked like so that I can copy them.
Dave: Got it. So, you're just graduating high school, "I wanna be able to be my own..." What was it like on the other side? So, at home, you're going home and you're still living with your parents and you're like, "Yeah, I'm not gonna work at that factory or..."
Kevin: Yeah. Because at first, I think I was going...I was taking some college classes for engineering, like AutoCAD and that type of stuff. And my parents thought, "Ah, that's awesome. You're gonna be an engineer, you're gonna get your degree." You know, that's gonna be awesome, then I said, "Yeah, that's not gonna happen anymore. I'm gonna get into real-estate." So, they're like, "Oh, well. Go for it, I guess. I don't know. You should still go try to get a degree. You should still go try to find something else if that doesn't work." And...
Melina: Makes sense.
Kevin: Yeah. That's what that, you know, so they kept telling me.
Dave: Got it, so, at the ripe old age of 18, you're like, "Okay, I'm doing real-estate." So, your life experience was, essentially, high school, you didn't come from... It was very different...in this podcast, because they're sitting here going, you know, normally we have people that have come from another job or we've had various people of totally different ages. You're the exception, I guess, to the rule, other than maybe Christian who came straight out of high school, straight into the Club, and getting yourself involved there. So, you worked as, like, you had a couple of jobs along the way?
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I was working at, like, a golf course as, like, a dishwasher, busboy, waiter, and then, right after that, I got...I got fired on that one.
Melina: Were you late for work?
Kevin: And then, I didn't...I think I was late a couple of times and then I was like, "I just am over this thing." And then I worked at a video shop and I just got sick of that. The guy kept saying, you know, there's stuff missing, kept blaming me for everything. I'm like, "What? I didn't know anything, you know." So then, I was over that and then, I mean, I didn't have any bills, so getting into real-estate was really easy. Just say, "Let me go do it."
Dave: Got it. So, we're just coming out and, you know, part of the challenge we talk about, you know, being 18 years old, you know, a huge obstacle you have against you is being 18 years old.
Kevin: Right. I know.
Dave: And the idea of, you know, as we've been talking last few weeks on these podcasts, talking about, you know, the idea of partnerships and being able to look at strengths and weaknesses, you know, one of your strengths is that you don't come with baggage. You know?
Melina: That's true.
Dave: I mean, really, you come, like, as an open sponge, "Tell me what to do and I'll go do it. I'm not gonna do it early in the morning, but I'll go do it."
Kevin: Well, I mean, people are working in the morning, Dave. People don't wanna talk too early. They wanna wait till they're home.
Dave: Or some of us are sleeping. But I got it, we understand.
Kevin: I mean, I like my logic a lot better than yours, but...
Dave: Yeah. So good. So, your need to lean, basically, on someone else's credibility in that, "I need someone older to be able to be the face of the business, because no matter what, I find a lead..." You know, they're not gonna give you a whole lot of credibility being, back in the day, 18, 19 years old.
Kevin: And I had braces at the time, which was worse.
Melina: That's true. He did have braces
Kevin: And I hated that. I hated having braces, going up to the door, telling people, "Hey, let me help you out. I got a solution for your home problem and I can buy the house." You know, they're like, "I don't believe you."
Dave: Right. Yeah. So that was a challenge, for sure.
Kevin: That was definitely a challenge.
Dave: So, good news, bad news. So, Kevin comes in, yeah, just an open, you know, plate, if you will, or a sponge. He's like all set, "Tell me what to do, I'll go do it." And the good news bad news was, you did exactly that and then you ended up partnering up with a couple of other guys that are older than you and you guys go down and close a short sell. And your very first transaction you hit the ball out of the ball park. It's like the Major League ball player who goes up and their first at bat hits a grand slam. And it's like...
Melina: In the World Series.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And where do I go from there?
Dave: You know, it's like, bottom of the ninth, we'll bring in Sito off the bench to hit a grand slam...
Kevin: Put me in, coach. Put me in.
Dave: Walk off, yeah, walk off grand slam. Boom, hits the ball out the ball park. You guys close that short sell and it's a six-figure deal. It's over $100,000 on this deal.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And...
Kevin: And, yeah, it was crazy. I mean, I didn't expect to make that. I just knew there's gonna be something there. Yeah.
Melina: "I feel like this could work for me."
Dave: So, I say good news, bad news because we joke all the time and I go, "Oh my gosh, the deal kinda ruined Kevin's life." Ultimate, it's not ruined your life, it's kind of a joke, but at the same time, that...Kevin set the expectations a little high, yeah?
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I...you say that it ruined my life. I hear that all the time and before I used to be like, "It didn't ruin my life, Dave." And then, thinking back now, it's like, it kind...it definitely gave me a reason to forget what I was doing and what I was taught and not do the things I needed to do because I thought I had it. I thought, "Ah, shit, I...my bad." I thought I, you know, I was the man. I thought I could handle everything, get every deal done, do it myself. And, you know, definitely not able to do that by myself. So, I needed other people around me.
Dave: Oh, got it. So, it's good that you, you know, recognizing that and we've kind of witnessed your journey. Like, I watched you close that deal, right, and then, we always laugh and say, and when you got that check and that check hits your account, what'd you go do?
Kevin: I definitely went to go test drive a car. I went to the Jaguar dealership. I didn't even have it in the account yet and I went to go test drive it. I didn't have insurance, my own insurance, yet. And I don't even know how the guy let me test drive it, honestly. Because I went with a couple other friends. They were like, "What are you doing right now?" "Well, I wanna buy this car because it's the one I want." I wanna show up, have this crazy car that's...I think it was like $90,000 at the time. And I showed up to the dealership and the guy's like, "So what are you guys doing here, for your parents? What does that look like?" "No, I wanna buy this car. Let me test drive it."
Dave: Just like that.
Kevin: Just like that. And he's like, "Can you afford it?" "Yeah, I want...if I like it, I'm gonna pay cash for it."
Melina: That's so awesome. And it's so great that he believed you. You believed it, too, though.
Kevin: I believed it in my head. I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna have the money in my account. If I like it, I'm gonna buy it." Just because that's what I thought at the time.
Dave: That's crazy. I live with my parents, I just got a real estate deal.
Melina: Didn't even have insurance.
Dave: I didn't have insurance or anything, you know. But I kinda...
Melina: Beautiful. I've only been driving for two years.
Dave: Yeah, but I've got a check coming that's gonna pay cash for this car.
Kevin: Gonna pay cash for it, yeah.
Dave: So, ultimately, Kevin did that and we had a conversation, I told him I will...I don't exactly remember what I said, but it was something along the lines of...
Kevin: You threatened me for sure. You definitely threatened me. I was scared for a little bit and, obviously, I didn't buy the car. Because it...
Dave: Good call.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah, I don't remember exactly what the threats were. They were something along the lines of, "If you waste all your cash on this stupid car..."
Kevin: Yeah, it was like, "You're gonna buy a car and then you're gonna be able to drive it for two months and then have no gas. Because you won't have any cash in your account."
Dave: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And bodily harm. When you get out of the hospital, assuming you can drive that car even then.
Kevin: I woulda been out of cash.
Dave: Out of cash.
Dave: Yeah, exactly. So, you didn't do that, which was good. And I remember you took that cash and you ended up...you guys went and did a...I think you bought a house. Fixed that up.
Kevin: We went to auction, bought a property, and fixed it, and on that one, we made 41,000.
Dave: Yeah, so 41,000. And it was like...I remember your response was like, "Nah, it was all right. We made 41." It was only 41, or something to that effect.
Kevin: Something like that, I mean, again, I was, like, young, very dumb. I'm not saying I'm that much smarter now, but I get it more. I feel like I'm more mature now.
Melina: For sure.
Dave: So, so you kinda get...so now you're like, "Okay, I got this. I got a six-figure deal, I just did a fix-and-flip, I got money in the bank," and then what?
Kevin: And then, traveled a little bit. I think I went, like when you mention, I went to Chile for a mission trip. And after that, I was like, "Man, I just wanna go travel again. I wanna go visit family that I haven't seen." I went from Nebraska to whatever other state that was through there, Texas, went down to Mexico for a few months. I think I was gone for another six months or something like that. And then after that, I was just vacation mode for the rest of the year and did really nothing. You know?
Dave: We said, "Kevin's hibernating."
Dave: He went away for the winter.
Kevin: Yeah. Felt like it, definitely felt like it. But it was cool because I had money in the bank.
Kevin: You know?
Dave: Right. So then, so you got money in the bank, things are good, and there was a point at which, I mean, I know that we were...I don't wanna say hounding you, but there was kind of this conversation of, like, "Hey, Kevin, what are you doing?" And, "You gotta get back." You closed a few more short sells, I think, during that time, so...
Kevin: Yeah, we got a few more short sells and then, obviously, you guys got that "keep it real" conversation with me, like, "Get off your butt and start going and do something because you're not always gonna have that money. You know, you can't retire off a 100 grand, right?" And then I started working with a couple of other people in the office, Frank, Mike Van Ness, Jason. And we started going to auction, we started buying, I don't even know how many properties we were looking at. We were looking at tons of properties and I think the last one we did was 2012, the last property we bought.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah, we've kinda gone away from because, yeah, listen to this, that used to be a strategy that we were doing back in the day. So, keeping in mind, we met Kevin all the way back in 2008?
Kevin: Eight, 2008 because that's when we graduated.
Dave: Oh, there you go. He graduated in 2008, easy to remember that now. So, we met him back in '08, so, through, like, 2012, we're still going to auction, we're able to buy properties at auction and then that strategy dried up as more and more, you know, hedge funds and more and more people with a lot of money were sitting at auction just, you know, buying up properties.
Dave: Yeah, way overpaying for properties and so we went away from that strategy. As we got away from that strategy, Kevin kinda went into his little hiatus for a little while and we did have a "keep it real" conversation. The "keep it real" conversation wasn't about making him wrong, it was more about, like, if you wanna do this as an entrepreneur, if you wanna own your own business, like, you've got to be accountable to yourself and to your own business. And, you know, as you're growing up, you know, you can't always live with your parents and you can't always, like, be in vacation mode for a little bit, take your foot off the gas and then suddenly wake up and be like, "Oh, I got another deal in the pipeline." I gotta constantly, consistently build that pipeline.
Dave: So, given that, we're here now...26, I just...blowing my mind.
Melina: I know, right?
Dave: Right. I just, and I'm looking at him, he's got a beard today.
Melina: I know.
Kevin: It's not a full-on beard. I wish it was thicker and bigger. But this is what I got.
Melina: I like it.
Kevin: This is what I can...this is what I got.
Melina: I like it like that.
Dave: Well, from...I think I saw you shave for the first time, so, you know, as we're sitting here reminiscing, as we're...
Kevin: I had the toilet paper, little sticks on there, probably.
Dave: From your face all the...
Kevin: Yeah. So true. So funny.
Melina: Yeah, yeah.
Dave: And, you know, we're sitting here, we're laughing, joking, reminiscing, all this stuff, but I really wanna hear, like, if we're gonna hone in on this, you know, here we are with Kevin who's, you know, he didn't mention in there, and I know you've said it before, like, some of his influence was from TV, you know.
Kevin: Yeah, definitely. Watching all the flip shows and it looked like it was just fun. Because, I mean, obviously the drama was funny and then there was a lot of different things that came with it, but it just looked...it looked awesome. Being able to get into a property, buy it, fix it up, and then being able to make a fat check at the end of it. You know?
Dave: Right. So, some of that TV that's influenced, you know, I want anybody listening to this, you know, we watch the TV shows and the flip shows, as we'll call them. And there's a part of it that we all want, just what Kevin just said, you know, "I wanna take something that's ugly, make it beautiful, and I wanna get a fat check, and make my own hours and so on and so forth." And so, part of that reality is, well, you could do exactly that. And going back to that very first deal, you find that lead, could you have closed that on your own?
Kevin: No. No.
Dave: So, you needed other people and expertise and money and stuff to get that close, right?
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, still do. That's the biggest realization for me is knowing that there's other people that have way more strengths and are a lot better at putting deals together where I'm good at just communicating with people. I can go talk to whatever homeowner, go through whatever that looks like, and then have them be open to a conversation where, "Hey, maybe we can get them out of the situation where they are open to buying." And then I can pass that off to somebody else now. I didn't...I tried to do everything before myself, and then a ton of deals just fell through. And, you know, lost a lot of that. Which, now, going back, I almost wish I wouldn't have tried doing myself, but then, it taught me what I know now and I can, you know, work with other people. And, you know, pass it off now.
Melina: Yeah. That's a huge, huge part. I think, you know, as I was thinking through, we've had so many...we've had such, you know, a different array of people inside of the Club. We have people that've had, you know, longer life experiences and sometimes, you know, it's so interesting to me because there is a benefit and a loss, you know? There's like pros and cons, whether you're young or you're middle-aged or you're, you know, in the second part of, you know, second half of your life, if you will.
Melina: So, yeah. But, you know, because there is a benefit to somebody who has experienced a lifetime and then, you learn things, you know, that you can only learn through life's experience. And I look at Kevin and go, "Wow, he's 26 years old and he's already...his learning curve is..." Like, your learning curve is so much shorter than other people. And I imagine, from your perspective, it looks like, "Gosh, I, you know, I've wasted time. Or I spent all that time doing this, this, or that." And I look at it and go, "Oh my gosh, you're so lucky that you got to spend your, you know, get the learning experience that you need in the way that you did."
Because that's what makes you such a great communicator and the ability to connect with people. And I can say this, I don't know very many 26-year-olds that have the ability to connect with somebody, like, for example, a distressed homeowner who has serious issues and, you know, that you could actually step into their world, connect with them in a real and authentic way, and then bring a solution. That's an incredible skill set to have at your age.
Dave: Yeah. For sure.
Melina: It's amazing and when I see Kevin, I mean, I watch him and I don't think...you're very unassuming. You know, I was thinking about this when I was thinking back to what you used to be like when you were 18 years old. And Kevin was incredibly shy.
Kevin: Oh, yeah.
Melina: So shy. And yeah, if you think about it, he wouldn't say...he would only say a few words. And actually, he started this business with his sister who was much more outgoing, much more, you know, communicative. Kevin was always kind of in the background and comfortable there. And then, at some point, yeah, he, you know, through his experiences, has become very, very good at communicating. I was just thinking about that. Like, who you've grown to be is just completely amazing. I mean, I knew, you know, the depth of you. You've always been an old soul, actually. Deep down, you've always been an old soul. But, you know, just the skill set, I don't think you can learn that any, yeah, I think that's a skill set that you've acquired in a very short period of time.
Dave: Yeah. Well, I think it's a lot of it has to do with, you know, the influences that he chose, you know...
Dave: You know, at 18 years old, as opposed to, unfortunately, what a lot of teenagers go through and maybe even the college experience, you know. And what we see from a lot of kids that are coming out of college and what that last, you know, several years has been like through college and whether it's, you know, whatever you do in college. You know, it's partying, and it's, you know, the priorities, his priorities were very different from the word go. You know, he got to experience the quick success that he had, right? Which we don't condone, obviously. We don't want anybody to come in and have some idea of, "Oh, we're gonna have quick success."
He had that, he went through that, and then that created that valley for him, right? Because you had a bunch of money, "I'm gonna cruise, I can just vacation, I can take time. I bought a used car, that was smart. I didn't buy that Jaguar. So, I got a used car, I'm okay with that. I can afford my insurance, I can afford my gas, and then, you know, when I take my foot off the gas," and then realizing that everybody else around him that's been influencing him is still here.
We're still working, the Club is growing, there's more and more people coming, and that influence that helped Kevin really to say, "Okay, I need to get serious about this and get back on the horse and it's okay, these people are going to accept me and I'm gonna come back and get myself re-working again. And then the second time I'm gonna do this, I'm not going try to do it all on my own. I'm going to recognize that I have things that I'm good at, things I'm not good at." I think all of that is, you know, I commend you, because it woulda been easier just to quit, to be honest.
Kevin: I mean, there's definitely been plenty of times where I wanted to quit. And it's always going back, thinking back about you guys. You guys have definitely given me a safe space to come back, you know, falling on my face, and done all my mistakes and still accepted me, still pushing me through it. And still, you know, being there to support me, guiding me, coaching me, mentoring me on everything that I'm doing. And that's been a huge, huge influence on my life and everything that I'm doing.
Dave: Yeah. Which is surreal for us, because, you know, and it...here we are, such a huge contrast, right, I mean, because, I mean, in a couple of weeks, we're gonna have, you know, Mark here with us. And, you know, what a gigantic contrast from the kid from high school all the way to, you know, someone who's looking to retire, working on retirement. And, you know...
Melina: Everything in-between. And to see, that's a perfect example, because the two of them together, their relationship is fascinating, you and Mark.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah. Mark...I love Mark. That guy's crazy.
Melina: Yeah. It's so cool. It goes back to that moment of, you know, for me that goes, "Gosh, how, you know, in any other world, where would two, you know, men from completely different walks of life, how could they hang out together and create a business relationship, a friendship, you know, that is, I think, so authentic and so deep and so real?" I don't know any other way that that could happen.
Kevin: Right, right.
Dave: And, you know, last week we had, you know, Tim and Oscar on here and, you know, Tim and Oscar, and their collaboration. Well, part of that collaboration is Kevin.
Dave: You know, and Kevin's so the opposite of Tim and Oscar in so many ways. Right, like, I don't think, Kevin, you're not a spreadsheet guy.
Kevin: I hate spreadsheets.
Kevin: Oscar and Tim started talking about spreadsheets and I go on my phone and I just start recording videos because I don't even wanna talk about it, I don't wanna hear it.
Melina: Yeah, you're like the...you're the millennial that they desperately need.
Dave: The energy and excitement and the attitude and everything that you have...
Melina: Yeah, well, and understanding what in the world do you do with all this social media and, you know, how do you do that. And Kevin is...I don't even know if you realized how creative you were. You know?
Kevin: Yeah. Definitely not...I mean, over the last year and a half or so, I've definitely been able to be a lot more open to the creative side of everything. And really open to learning and being taught new things that, before, I just wouldn't have even been open to it.
Dave: So, you're speaking to a different generation, even from, you know, we have kids your age, you know. So, looking at that like, so if you were going to leave, like, your generation, you know, a tip right now. Something, somehow, someway, they're looking at this and they're sitting there watching flip shows or they're looking for something, what kind of advice would you give them?
Kevin: The biggest thing is, obviously, get around people that are successful. Get around a lot of people that are in the industry that you're looking to be in and that are in the spot that you wanna be at, because that's the best teachers, those are the best people that you're gonna learn from. Being around a bunch of other kids that don't know what they're doing or are still in the learning phase of it, you're not gonna really get anywhere. And, you know, that's where I feel I got stuck in. I got just stuck around a bunch of people that, "Oh, let's go try to do this thing." That doesn't work. Be around someone that's gonna really inspire you, influence you to do and be better than where you are now. So, start finding those people and really learn from them. Don't just listen to what they're saying, but put it into action.
Dave: Wow, great words.
Melina: Those are great words. It's interesting, I was just thing that, you know, I'm participating in a mentoring program at CBU and as I'm meeting with and talking to seniors that are getting ready to graduate from college, I've asked them, I asked several of them, "So, what are you looking for? Why are you choosing, you know, in your last semester of college, why are you choosing, why are you asking for mentoring now? Have you ever been mentored?" And every one of them said the same thing, "Well, I've never had a mentor and I really want to learn, I need to understand what's happening in the real world."
Dave: Wow, yeah, not college.
Dave: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, Kev, I appreciate you taking time out and being able to share with us and we're gonna wind this thing down. Because I know we talked about it before we got in here, but we're hungry.
Kevin: Yeah, let's go get some grub.
Dave: We're hungry. We're gonna go get some lunch.
Kevin: Yeah, let's go.
Melina: I just want to tell you, Kevin, how proud I am of you, how much, and seriously, I'm so very proud of you. And every time, you know, I see you, you make my heart happy and I just love you. I just stinking love you. I love so many things about you. So, very, very proud of you.
Kevin: Well, I love you guys. I love to be around you guys.
Dave: But when we play golf this week, I'm gonna beat you.
Kevin: Dave, I'm... Don't even worry about it, Dave. I'm gonna beat you. It's not even...just, I mean, I look good, regardless, I might not be that great, but I'm gonna look good doing that. Yeah.
Dave: You're gonna look the part, you're gonna do your best.
Melina: True that.
Dave: Well, let's go have some fun, let's grab some lunch, and we'll catch you guys later. Dave and Melina signing off New Wealth Advisors Club and...
Melina: Flipping out, flipping off. See ya, Handsome Castle.
Dave: Later, guys.